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am i the only one feeling the sexual tension here?

On topic, I'm still unable to really acess demons at GT level, but at local store level i'm still finding they beat most armies. Now I'm the only player of demons there, so it is a little novel; but the thing i think i have to focus on most is terrain, no army needs LOS blocking terrain more than demons. I think that once more places have better '5th ed terrain' demons will do even better.

For the most part Stelek has sound tactics with his opinions. I question the quality of his opponents!

It does not matter who plays what or does what. Luck comes into play often while playing 40k. Some random lucky roll to penetrate vehicle happens and all is lost. 40k is a game of inches and sometimes you come up an inch short.

Demons are good if opponent has no idea what they do. People learn what they do and win pct. for demons drops.

sex tension heh... These forums are not a place to air your dirty laundry so take it elsewhere bub. The good news for you is the Internet is rife with it so just look elsewhere.

G

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Demons are good if opponent has no idea what they do. People learn what they do and win pct. for demons drops.

Yeah, fortunately for me I am a big enough jackape that people rarely play me twice and so I am forced to wander southern california looking for new opponents who have yet to see that new fangled daemon codex, then I beat them and disappear to find another unsuspecting noob...

Okay, everyone take a deep breath and repeat: "They are just little plastic space men."
That being said, I have just started a daemon army and have played three games so far; two wins one draw. I run mostly Daemonetts supported with flamers, screamers, a daemon prince, and a squad of plaugebearers. Tanks have been trouble, however MC's and screamers are up to the challenge, at least in my experiences. I play mostly against two Eldar players who tend to field infantry heavy armies. I can see how Daemons would run into trouble against armor 14 vehicles, but with luck and a solid strategy, I think daemons could do just fine.

Screamers are great anti-tank, as are the right tooled up MCs. It's all about the list. Personally, the only weakness is not DSing the turn of assaulting. If I can live through a turn of shooting, I can pretty much win.

Demon thread...

I command you...

RIIIIIISE from your grave!!!!!

I hate changlings........

I once had a railhead fail a leadership test and BOOM there goes the OTHER Railhead.

Daemons are very unique and can be really in a hole if the dice are not with you while deep striking. That being said, there are few armies that can stop a daemon army if the deployment goes well and the deamons survice long enough to assault.

How do they fair against orks?

I want to play demons I think, because no one else in my area is playing them, and they're a very non-marine army. I was thinking of doing an all Tzeentch list, but after my experiences in the latest `Ard Boyz round, I may do all Nurgle instead.

Frazzled wrote:How do they fair against orks?

Only played two Daemons v Ork games. Won both games, but neither was against loota spam. Against loota spam, the game gets a lot tougher, and my guess would be that it comes down to the Daemon player not getting too screwed on DS rolls.

Yeah it really depends on the ork list as they are totally different (nob bikers vs. 3 loota unit horde as extremes).

You can do well against some orks but you will have the same problems with loota spam as... well... every other army in the game. Take 3 soul grinders, that sorts greenskins out fairly well and the best they can hope for with lootas is a glance which you will ignore 2/3 of the time..

To someone new at the game, why are 2 squads of 18 Daemonettes each preferrable to 6 squads of 6 each?

I'm putting together an all-Slaanesh army, and haven't had enough play experience to really grasp how it will tend to unfold.

ialdabaoth wrote:To someone new at the game, why are 2 squads of 18 Daemonettes each preferrable to 6 squads of 6 each?

I'm putting together an all-Slaanesh army, and haven't had enough play experience to really grasp how it will tend to unfold.

The argument for having smaller, broken up units is that firing units can only shoot at single units (unless they're Tau). So even the biggest squad of orcs can only shoot and kill one squad per turn.

The argument against is that Chaos Daemons don't get a 'have as many as you want' rule for troop squads like certain armies have. That and the smaller squads will be easier to kill and give up their kill points faster.

It's a matter of tactics, really, and whether you were going to try to fit anything else into your six troop slots. If you're playing a small enough game and all you have is 36 daemonettes, then having six squads is really impressive, but it might not work out quite as well at 2000.

well, yeah, all I've got is 36 Daemonettes, and I'm going all-Slaanesh. There really aren't that many other Troop choices...

I prefer larger squads because then even after taking some wounds you are still a threat. If there are only 6 daemonettes a unit of IG lasguns will likely reduce you down to one model and a slightly good round of shooting will wipe it out.

I would probably go with 3 units of 12 daemonettes - or even the two units of 18. It is all about threat control - If you have a large number of threats your opponent will just have to decide what they want to take it in the teeth with - a mix of seekers, fiends and daemonettes are pretty awesome for that as they all have a threat range beyond rapid fire range so try and resist the urge to get in there as quickly as possible.

Another idea to try might be a unit of 18, a unit of 12 and a unit of 6 and see how they work out for you - seeing each in play might give you a better idea of what you want to do.

I think the primary problem with Daemons in 40k is the randomness created by the arrive by deepstrike and you get an random half of your army to arrive first and then have to roll everything else by reserves. You needed that Epidemus and didn't roll his half oh well. And there are all the risks of deepstriking.

The arrive by deep strike can also be countered by an DH Inquisitor with 2 mystics which enables a unit within 12 inches to fire upon the arriving demons if they are with in 4d6 of the Inquisitor and Mystics. Eating an Exorcist barrage or Demolisher Cannon puts the hurt on a demon unit before it even gets to fire.

IMO This makes Demons a fun army.

okay all you silly people
fact 1) No army in 40k can beat every other army in tournament play. there are far too many lists or build options ie. mech eldar, nidzilla ork horde, ork shooty, speed freaks, land raider spam, horde tyranids, terminator spam, mech tau, foot mounted tau, templar hordes, sternguard spam (for stelek) no single army can beat every competive build out there. So you build the best army you can and hope not to draw the match up that bones you.

fact 2) daemons have proven in the major tourney's recently that they can be quite competitive look at chicago gt daemons took fifth (that was me) and I think tenth? and if I remember correctly at gt vegas they had a good showing also

fact 3) these are my opinions on the daemons as suited for MY play style they won't work for everybody but I've found that the opinions presented are very well reasoned and applicable.

fact 4) I feel this is the hardest army to learn how to play right and how to play well. This is a super finese army and in the hands of a new player it will fail horribly like a fish on dry land, also if your opponent doesn't know how this book works and you do he will have a very very bad game

fact 5) this is no longer 4th edition!!! most people are thinking that way still it's a whole new ballgame guys. so you need to modify your thinking accordingly

I think the monstrous creatures are the biggest waste of points in the entire book, combat is no longer won by outnumbering your opponent a gazillion to one. It's won on how many kills you do, and a daemon prince is way too overcosted for the number of attacks he gets ( I understand people think he's good for anti tank--see below) a unit of troops in close combat will kill far far more than he can. I feel these are the red herrings of the codex

I personally hate anything nurgle in the daemon book. In my experience it doesn't die very easily which is great for standing back and holding objectives, however they also don't kill very much in close combat, and if some plague bearers are hanging back thats points not being utilized correctly in my opinion. The daemons need all of their units to be trying to kill the enemy, and if plague bearers arn't doing that they are dead weight.

Soulgrinders can be very good SOMETIMES. at the gt I had them land and die on the next turn every game, however at the hard boys they were tearing stuff up left and right. They are great against orks and land raiders, and daemonhunters, (haha str 6 weapons eat that terminators) But them being hit or miss doesn't work out so well. I like ONE in a list or even none but multiples aren't very good

I feel the best way to play the codex is to open a little eye of terror and spew out as many little daemons as you possible can, You get to be one turn away and your opponent (hopefully) can't shoot enough dead to stop you

Bloodletters are the BEST unit in the entire book bar none. the trick is how to get them there and protect them as best as you can There is almost nothing in the entire game that can stand a charge from 15 bloodletters 45 ws5 str5 I5 power weapons!?!?!?!? even 3 or 4 of them is deadly to a unit of marines if they charge I know they can't kill walkers or land raiders but thats not their job

Daemonettes are awesome, they have offensive and defensive grenades at I6 so will almost always be going first with fleet! they dig units out of cover for you bloodletters to kill next turn.

Horrors have a 4 up invul so they operate best in units of around 10 or so dropped right in front of your army. the reasoning is that if they shoot horrors great you get a 4 up save if they shoot stuff behind great your save goes from 5 to 4 if they charge horrors thats even better because you counter charge and kill whatever you want. These guys are surprisingly resiliant sometimes they just dont die, because with a 4+invul most times you can't just chew through a 10 man squad in one turn

the daemon troop units bloodletters and daemonettes should NEVER and I repeat because this is the most important rule to this book NEVER contain less than 15 models. you need big units not lots of smaller ones. because multiple units go in differant places on the board some further away than others and the big unit lets you soak fire and maybe survive just that one more turn to get a charge in. daemonetts i like in unts of 20 but points wise it can be a little much so 16 is the smallest unit size I will go and 16 daemonetts on the charge have 64 attacks that is nothing to sneeze at even though they are str 3 the sheer volume makes up for it and they almost always will be going first even if you charge them then thats 48 attacks going first.

when you play daemons you WILL lose units and you WILL lose models thats how this army works you have buffer units to soak fire and soak charges so your nasty stuff can counter charge and murder it all buffer units being bloodcrushers, horrors, or if you really really want the plague bearers can do it too

Anti-tank: everytime I see posts about daemons everybody is worried about anti tank. This army is one of the best anti tank armies in the game, but nobodys thinking about it from a 5th edition perspective. Bloodletters are one of the best anti tank units in the army. When you charge a tank you hit REAR armour so a bloodletter unit charging a vehicle even if it moved fast and you need 6's can murder almost every tank in the game, the exceptions being walkers, land raiders, and monoliths. Daemonettes are the 3nd best tank killer in the army, but they can kill every walker but the soulgrinder, and seige dreadnaught, which is huge. now you don't see alot of walkers but I expect that you will start seeing many more of them in the future. The 3 tanks that bloodletters and daemonetts can't kill you have to account for, which you can use a soulgrinder if you want to since he's str 10 with 5 attacks. But I prefer the Bloodthirster. The trick is to change your thinking on this model, he is super good at killing tanks probably one of the best in the game period. When you charge from 18 inches away at str9 plus 2d6 against rear armour what tanks survive?? The monolith is somewhat challenging to kill but when you charge it It's like shooting 6 lascannons at it, and its not guaranteed but we all know that lascannons CAN kill monoliths. I use him almost exclusively in a dedicated anti tank role in my army but don't underestimate what else he can kill he's good at killing tactical marines and their like since they need 5's to hit him, you want to make sure he doesn't get stuck in combat for multiple turns since you're losing alot of potential that way. But for the army to work at its maximum you need him to be killing tanks

Bolt of change: seriously everybody wtf!?!?!?!? you want to use a weapon that is usually embedded in a 5 man horror unit wtf again!?!?!? its far too easy to cause 5 wounds to a unit like that and lose your bolt. here's my problem with it. it hits half the time in a horror unit, is a single shot weapon and is only str 8. Horrors are made to shoot infantry not tanks (unless shooting rear armour) putting a anti tank one shot gun in this unit makes no sense to me not when you have almost every unit in the codex that is much much better at killing tanks than this thing. In my opinion this is the biggest wast of points in the entire book since you can bring almost 2 daemonetts for one bolt and if you're putting it on a daemon prince there's more problems there.

The troops in this book rule they are so good at killing so many different things its rediculous there is no reason why 1/2 to 2/3 of your army shouldn't be troops.

How they enter play can be challenging to learn how to work it but it is one of the most powerful tools in the arsenal. I get to see how you deploy no matter what before I make any sort of decisions as to how I split or deploy my force, (sometimes deepstriking goes awry thats just the nature of dice you don't get to control how they work all the time) and if my opponent wants to hold his whole army in resereve thats okay too since they get their army in piecemeal which a savvy daemon player can pick apart (the daemon player still has units in reserve too that can be used to apply pressure in just the right way)

Just like every army in the game this codex has weakness too and sometimes you can defeat those things that hurt your army sometimes not like null zone. If a good marine player with a good list has it you are in for a rough game.

This army if used correctly can also beat some of the "best" tournament army lists out there. It can defeat nidzilla mech eldar, mech tau, and orks pretty handily but you have to be smart and know how to do it (which takes a bunch of losing for a little while to learn how)

And finally for all those curious here's what I ran at the chicago gt 1750 pts

Bloodthirster +1 str (absolutely necessary always always always. the +1 str that is)
15 bloodletters Icon
15 bloodletters Icon
16 daemonettes Instrument (had 5 points left seemed like the best place for it)
9 horrors Icon
9 horrors Icon Changeling
5 Bloodcrushers
Soulgrinder (pie plate upgrade) I decided this guy goes away in the future. At 1850 he turns into a keeper with +1str pavane and hit and run

total modes 71 all very close to your army where I've decided the weak spots are (thats alot to kill that quickly) I'm not saying it can't be done but it can be tough

at 1750 Im not sure what he becomes, he may just stay there as another answer to landraiders and monoliths since at that point level I believe you need 2 good answers.

to answer the op I think that daemons are a very firm yes in competitive play, any questions i'd be happy to answer them, and hopefully this answers any questions you had.

Sorry this was so rediculously long but I had to put my 2 cents in and once I started I just couldn't stop. Like I said these are my opinons and experience with this army so you are perfectly allowed to think i'm wrong but play me in a game and I'll happily try to prove my point on the table. I may win. I may not, but hopefully you'll learn a thing or two, or have a healty respect of what this book can do in the end.

Thanks.. as I started this, I am glad to hear it works and esp with bloodletters at the core with slaanesh demons.

I can almost make your list with what I bought... 4 boxes of letters and 1 box of demonettes... I have an old bloodthirster and really wanted a khorne theme to it and personnally hate the soulgrinder model so this is almost an all good news post. Thanks again.

My goal when it came out was to have an army of thirsters but I can bend to some horrors... I just didn't want to go down the well trod plaguebearer path.

I will add one question, do you spend the points on icons or just live with the scatter? Also wondering if it is worth the 10 points (i think) to make one letter have rending... just seems like a potential useful... 5 Str + 1d6 + 1d3 you might even glance a raider or a monolith and it certainly gives you one creature to light up a walker.

I spend the points on icons I don't think any army needs any more than 4 since they can be very points intensive. It's better to have the icons in a list and not use them than to not have them and wish you had them

what they are really good for is keeping your forces supported close together if you don't have icons you have to place your units coming in about 8 inches away from your other units to prevent a deep strike mishap and if they scatter away then you can have a unit arrive, and the following turn be unable to support what is already on the table and icons make sure that you get that unit right where you want it to give it a cover save or to have a counter charge the next turn or to contest an objective at the end of the game

sometimes you want to put a unit somewhere farther away than you have icons and then you just scatter and hope it goes well

I play somewhat agressively with the army and I occasionally have mishaps kill units (its why I lost a game at the gt 15 bloodletters died on the mishap and if i would have had them I could have won and probably easily)

deep striking is best viewed as an art in the daemon army. the more games you play the more used you will get to how far away to place a unit, where to put it so that after a possible scatter and run move they are in the right position for your plans on the following turn (never ever forget the run after the deep strike it helps get your units into place while keeping them at a safe place to deep strike)

never be afraid to take the risk and put a unit up in their grill and roll scatter sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and when it works hooo booy can it be bad for your opponent. just don't forget to pray to the dark gods and sacrifice some goats so they bless your scatter dice

Saw a mixed khorne army take best general last weekend at a small 32 person local game store tourny. However the going consensus was that he got lucky for opponents and missions. Probably won't win again if he used the army a second time over. I didn't actually get a chance to see its comp though. So take this with a grain of salt.

Tortuga, what do you think about screamers? I've had a good amount of success with them. They're relatively cheap, and I like the psychological effect they have on my opponents who do bring tanks. Something that moves that fast, will eat landraiders, and can ignore your heaviest weapons really seems to give some of my opponents focus as to what to try and shoot at.

For that matter, why bloodcrushers over flamers? I'm using them as suicide squads, but dropping in and wiping out entire units, particularly ones that I can't afford to have shooting at me, is something not to be ignored.

oops forgot about rending

that all comes to a personal decision its ten points for a single guy to get rending and if you look at the odds of that guy doing something to say a dreadnaught, or a land raider it's not very likely I ran the math and rending on a bloodletter charging a dreadnaught with av 12 has a 13% chance of dealing with it (thats including immobilizing it since everybody else can beat on it after that and kill it once its immobilized) and if it charges you or on subsequent rounds of combat its a 5% chance of dealing with it. and thats just the vanilla av 12 dready's if its venerable its worse since you hit it on 4's instead of 3's and they can make you reroll it so the percentages go way down and an av 13 dready is almost as bad and whose going to bring av 12 dread when there's siege dreads or venerable ones or even soul grinders.

however it is dice you get to use to try and do something. I find i'd rather have my bloodthirster come in and kill a dreadnaught then try to have bloodletters get themselves unstuck. its not very likely for them to do so.

that being said if I had the points to do it I probably would. (its kind of like giving meltabombs to one guy) but In the list I posted there was absolutely no way I could afford the points to give it to somebody I don't think you should ever ever cut models in the army to add rending to a single guy I don't think it's worth droping models out of units to possibly affect something that one of your other units is in the army list to deal with

But If you think it's more important to have rending on a guy than to have one more guy in your units thats up to you, and go for it play your list however you feel comfortable, and how your play style works since we may not play the exact same way and what works for me may not work for you I just thought i'd give you the math if you were one of those odds guys

In my experience a unit of screamers is way more awesome since they all have melta bombs you can hide them better and they are much harder to kill I like units of 6 for 96 points and if your opponent has no tanks then they can tie up a devastator unit or they can go kill guardsmen or guardians or last turn contest objectives or you can hide them and prevent your opponent getting kill points

side note* rending won't work on a monolith

I actually love flamers since they can dish out piles and piles of damage if I use them I like to use a small unit of 3 for 105 points and they are DAMN scary. if i had room i'd add them in

the reasons they aren't in there is that they are a fragile unit (only 3 wounds) and a small amount of fire at them makes them go away. It's not a bad idea to look at them as a glass cannon. they show up (and if you can protect them for a turn) then they go nuke a unit and get killed in return. If you take bloodletters as a comparison they show up and can nuke a unit just as efficiently but afterwards they are more survivable. But I do love how terrified some people are by them and the damage they have the potential to do

The thing to remember when using the list i have is that you don't need any more infantry killing power than whats in there since daemonettes and bloodletters kill any and all infantry your opponent may have. and since flamers are infantry killers at their best (they can hurt tanks but thats not their optimal usage) they aren't the ideal unit to have in an army. Oh and they're an easy kill point

Bloodcrushers are invaluable in how the list operates. They aren't in there because of what they can do in close combat. Keep in mind that a unit of 5 IS a threat and needs to be dealt with and they can do very nasty things to armies (especially orks if you charge a ork unit you beat the ork unit by a lot. these guys end orks )

Their real value is in their survivability. They are a "blocking unit" since they are T5 with 2 wounds each, and have a 3+ armour and 5+invul and are on those gigantic bases they come with. That does a few things for your army.

1) they can soak an incredible amount of fire in the shooting phase and the close combat phase either because of their armour or invul or if they have a cover save. I've seen whole armies shoot at them only to kill just them or not do much to them, and there's no way to negate all of their saves so they'll always get a save of some kind

2)they provide a 4+ cover save to anything nasty right behind them, bloodletters are a million times more survivable with a 4+cover than a 5+ invulnerable (especially because of null zone since you don't reroll cover saves)

3) they block charges. if you have these guys land in front of another unit and then run you spead them out in a line straight across a unit you don't want charged, and since their bases are large your opponent has to shoot a bunch dead (can be a tough proposition) to punch a hole he can charge through

Hey Tortuga, how did you do at the Chicago GT with the list you posted above?

edit: Nevermind, I ended up finding the answer to the question in your first post. Answer: 5th. Good job

I'm working on an all khorne daemon army for Adepticon, so reading this with some interest.

Redbeard - I did well with my all Khorne daemons at the Vegas GT without facing a single Marine player. I think with the new Marine codex out there will be even more marine players and you should do quite well against them.

demons really? who would spend that much money just to lose every game?

Tortuga's absolutely right. I was the 10th place list (was essentially 1 armor save away from getting 2nd, as that armor save cost me an icon that I needed to bring a unit down in exactly the right position, as opposed to scattering on top of a unit and beginning a cascade of Epic Fail that netted me a massacre loss).

Daemons need a different kind of player. You really have to play the statistics game with them, because they're so random. Yes, you can have a cascading series of Epic Fail that costs you the game...but what army can't?

The thing to remember about Daemons is that every worthwhile unit (I won't discuss the uselessness that are Furies or Beasts of Nurgle) has something that it does exceptionally, ridiculously well. Khorne? kill anything (except Dreads) you touch in HTH. Nurgle? Don't die. Tzeentch? Shootiness beyond belief. Slaanesh? Surprisingly fast and strikes first before anything.

The counterpart to this is that every unit has somethat it totally sucks at. Khorne? Anything 12"+ away is safe. Nurgle? Low hitting power in most situations. Tzeentch? Worse than Tau in HTH. Slaanesh? Dies if you sneeze at them.

Are they a tier 1 list (one of the lists that everybody has to consider for competitive play)? No. But not because they're not competitive. It's because of their randomness, which precludes the ability for an opponent to predict reliably what a Daemon army is going to look like.

Both Tortuga and I had very different lists. And we both did reasonably well. Somnicide did well at Vegas with a list that's different than ours.

The greatest strength of the Daemon list isn't its units. Its in its randomness. Because you don't choose what force is primary and which is secondary until the Daemon player's first turn, a non-Daemon player is forced to prepare for nearly everything. That's why I believe that mono-God lists are relatively quicker. Sure a khornate list will butcher everything in HTH...but its got to get there.

Centurian99 wrote:Daemons need a different kind of player. You really have to play the statistics game with them, because they're so random. Yes, you can have a cascading series of Epic Fail that costs you the game...but what army can't?

Rolling bad dice is one thing.

If you named me an army that always deep striked in and scattered without any way to control