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we don't need no stinkin' badges

I disagree with the Huh Spase Marinez comment about 12 year olds. I'm 13 and if a GW staff member said that to me I'd buy what I wanted to buy and leave.

I've been playing for 15 years and I think in that whole time, maybe i've seen 5 girl gamers. My wife plays WFB and 40K and I love her for it. The funniest thing I ever saw was her first tourney. It was during the summer and quite hot out, so my wife wore a tank top and skirt to try and stay cool. Her one opponent was about 18 and looked as if he had never seen a girl that he hadn't downloaded.
Well, during my wife's turn, she leans over the table to move some minis and was asking the kid if she wheeled them correctly, still being unsure of herself. I glance at the guy, and he had a zombie stare down my wife's top. I thought his head would explode. She had to repeat her question to get an answer from him and even then it was a numb, "un huh. sure." The rest of the game went the same way and I am pretty sure my wife's high elves could have all had a move rate of 33 inches, and all had toughness 12 and 17 attacks each and this kid would not have batted an eye. Funny as hell.

She won BTW.

This topic circulates now and then. There are plenty of reasons, none of which fully explain the phenomenon but which as a whole provide a good reason. They've been explored in a fair amount, and I don't see a need to discuss them here.

I don't see it as a problem, however. Many other hobbies are strongly skewed one way or the other. SCrapbooking and knitting are still mostly women (although more men are picking up both). Model Railroading and CCGs tend to be more male. As a whole, men tend to have more free time than women. Women do more child rearing and housework and often work as much as men. Even when women do have free time, they would often rather stay at home or spend time talking to a friend.

I also think men tend to have more of a need to justify spending time with other guys. Watching a game, playing 40k, fishing: these are all ways to socialize with other men. It would be weird to simply sit around and gossip for three hours, so we seize an activity we enjoy and do that socially. Fewer women feel that need, and so can socialize without props, so to speak.

As for banning women, I'm ashamed to say that I could see the allure to that. A gaming group can have problems if people enter it that have fundamentally different goals than the rest, regardless of gender. A club that eliminates those that ruin the fun of others isn't wrong. I think a sweeping gender ban is reactionary and I'd be uncomfortable with it, but I can at least understand why you would do it. Having a "man cave" is a beautiful thing.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Well, rather, but...

I'm all for Gentlemen's Clubs. We all need to get away from the other half for a while on occasion.

I just wish I could get my wife to have the same attitude towards taking me shopping for shoes.

When you said "Gentlemen's Clubs" I thought of something totally different a.k.a. Titty bars. This leads to my next thought of hiring strippers to play 40k. The only problem I can see is I would probably lose a lot because of the near completely effective distraction techniques of my opponent.

I've seen probably a dozen or so ladies who play various miniatures games, and several more who play RPGs, including historicals. Actually, I tend to think ladies are more interested in the 'light historicals' (e.g. pulp) genre because of its emphasis on storytelling (not role-playing per se) over straight bash 'em ups. Just IMHO.

White Dwarf a couple of years ago actually had an okay article on women who game (I can't believe I just wrote that). A little condescending in the 'gurlz can game tooo!' variety but on the right track. Mark Rhein-Hagen also had a great article in the 2nd Ed. Vampire Player's guide on women and gaming in general (specifically, the interest in storytelling over roll-playing, though I have to say, most of the women I've played D&D with wanted a big sword to hit things with and to get through the 'flavor text' as quickly as possible).

The best thing the local battle bunker did (now, this was 3+ years ago and I haven't been back since) was hire a woman as a blackshirt. she knew her stuff (well, at least as well as a blackshirt does), painted well, was not just 'nerd bait' (though a local comic shop had that too), was polite and thoughtful. I don't know whether it was her management style or just a change of staff, but the whole crew was much better after she became manager; approachable and helpful without being pushy or screamy.

My GF plays Necrons.

Grace, a poster on this forums plays and she has 2-3 friends that play that are females

The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

chicks don't really dig the games, yo.

But when they do they are happy playing WoW. Excellent way to attract a mate. That, and I would venture some friendly Magic: The Gathering groups can go as high as 1/3 female.

that, and I personally have been known to coerce girlfriends into playing Hordes. It's not hard, really. Other games are fun too, like Pirates of the Carribean. NOT anything Warhammer, too complicated/ drearysome.

Basically all of these opinions are valid. A lot of women are too... I hate to use the word emotional... it's more a lack of ability to seperate reality (what is) from fantasy (what you want). It makes for a poor grasp of tactics.
Most thirteen year old males have the same problem, but there's nothing wrong with being interested in a game just for the background.
In this case the fluff is obviously NOT so appealing to women. War-themes aside, the competitive aspect is another deterrent to girly-girls. I'm making a comparison to blokey-blokes here, something I don't believe I am.

My partner works in the paint department at a large DIY warehouse, lifts heavy things, etc. whilst I carry a briefcase, iron my shirts and fix ornaments (rich people's computers) for a living. My hair is also twice the length of hers. Role reversal? I don't really think so.
Despite her lifetime of paint experience, she has never painted the one miniature I bought her over twelve months ago. She once sat down and painted a spare Empire Spearman after some prompting (I undercoated half a dozen different models and let her choose one to paint), but as she was quite chatty I hardly got any of my own painting done. I don't think she has the attention span to ever take wargaming seriously, but that's a nice dose of reality which helps me to NOT take it too seriously. Men tend to obsess over details the way women obsess over feelings and themes. The two genders compliment one another pretty nicely, methinks.

A lot of male gamers are just in it to paint their armies and put them on a shelf for people to see. Others just want to pwn, and painting is a low priority.
If enjoying the 'modelling' aspect can be seen as a feminine trait, then you're practising Mindless Association and may as well have female genitals and hormonal balance yourself.

I agree that more women in the hobby would raise general opinions on wargaming, and of course it would be good for GW. The 'HUR' aspect doesn't appeal to me at all, and off-topic I really didn't enjoy Gears Of War single-player for the same reason.

There is a female in my gaming group. She is a great gamer, modeller and painter. Yeah, she is the girlfriend..but from what I know, I think she got him into it. She is an awesome opponent, she came in 3rd for the first round of 'Ardboyz...and we think she missed getting first place in the semi's by 1 Necron.

No drama, no nothing. She's just a person. It's cool.

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

When girls talk about not wanting "guys who play games", they meant Warhams. Contrary to what you might have believed. In fact, girls love guys who play "The Game" but we, being warhams players, wouldn't know anything about that.

I will say that in all my years of gaming I have only ever gamed with one woman who wasn't a total drain on the game I was playing. When I see a woman sit down at a gaming table, be it 40k, DnD, or anything that isn't a board game, they have completely ruined it for me. Not the game per se, just the entire experience of the game.

I've only ever played one game of 40k with a woman. She had no idea what was going on, her boyfriend kind of thrust her into it. Seemingly against her will.

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her. A game I recently made up an excuse to get out of featured the DMs wife totally screwing things up by not know how to do BASIC MATH! Really!? REALLY!? Come on, you got out of grade school I know it. Your in local politics advocating your fake series of disorders, you can do the math. Especially after 2 months of playing. I couldn't handle that anymore. Not to mention she would leave half way through most of the games and hand me her character to play. I was better at playing her character than she was. She also would never just STFU either. But I'm ranting. The only girl I've ever gamed with who was a complete pleasure and I wish I could sit across a table with her again to throw some dice is Laurel. She was awesome. Cared about what she looked like, but didn't obsess over it. Wanted to enjoy the game for what it was. Didn't play a kind of stereotypical female tease that you usually see. She was awesome.

And to echo everyone's opinion, games often don't try to target women. At least not normal women. I see the occasional 500 pound beasts roaming the floor at some events.

P.S.: I just read this... I'm a douche.

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

You do see a lot of that too. And that kind of gaming is why I keep forcing myself out of the hobby. I need to find some not socially inept gross people to play with.

Haha, good luck on that yo. I'm extremely lucky that I found a crew here who are football/rugby players and wrestlers who happen to be nerdy. It's fun being able to play some beach volleyball, then take a break and do nerdy stuff, then play some tackle football afterwards.

....Then "ironically" eat cheetos and drink mountain dew to top it all off.

Typeline, your post just won this thread.

With regards to the OP, I don't think I've actually played a woman before. Odd. I did see one who played necrons at my FLGS. I think she was one of the more regular player's girlfriends, but I think her army was about 1500 points, and painted.

Girlfriends playing DnD and female gamers are different things, though. Look at it this way;

If your girlfriend is too dumb to play DnD, it's because you're also an idiot and your standards are too low. You're using your imagination, sure, but that only makes you an effective roleplayer. Your girlfriend is still dumb in real life.

It's like this; your first character is who you want to be. Your second character is the way you'd like to be seen. Your third game is a gnome illusionist (well, mine wasn't, and PC Gnomes don't exist in 4th ed, but this is satire damnit!), and your fourth character is your first ACTUAL game. It doesn't matter what gender you are. That's why roleplaying opposite genders is always creepy until you can seperate your goals from your character's. Especially if you're playing your first or second character, because it hints at some interesting personal issues.

Slightly more on topic, I've met about three female Warhammer players (one had TWO armies!) and never played against one.

We have a few females who play at the FLGS and most are girlfriends/wives. I think the big problem is that when any girl, let alone a cute girl walks in most of the guys go into staring/dribbling mode and scare them off. Not all of the guys but enough to make things uncomfortable. When people are uncomfortable they don't want to be there and when this feeling is associated with something i.e. gaming they don't want to be a part of it.

Winner:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:
If your girlfriend is too dumb to play DnD, it's because you're also an idiot and your standards are too low. You're using your imagination, sure, but that only makes you an effective roleplayer. Your girlfriend is still dumb in real life.

so true and its unfortunate that it happens, i mean when i played my first girl in 40k at a gaming club, it was my second time at the club and he first, there wasnt much staring/dribbling just fun gaming and i think thats why she came back

I don't know any females who play GW games. I know 2 Battletech players very well, and have played against a couple others.

But GW? Not a one.

Agreed, squig. In all seriousness, Commisar00's point is probably the single biggest factor.

On the other hand, there's also a difference between not being stupid and being determined not to be seen as stupid. I'm thinking of people of either gender who want to be shown how to play, but then giggle and fart their way all the way through.
Make fun of my hobby AFTER you know what you're talking about, or I'll treat you like the obnoxious idiot you rightly are.

stonefox wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

When girls talk about not wanting "guys who play games", they meant Warhams. Contrary to what you might have believed. In fact, girls love guys who play "The Game" but we, being warhams players, wouldn't know anything about that.

Every time I see "warhams" I can't help but start laughing uncontrollably.

I just got into the hobby, but the one thing that I wouldn't particularly like about a female gamer is... they expect to be respected more THAN anyone else. Simply because they ARE playing the game and have no male genitalia. Then you have the kid who is completely crushed by this female presence and is drooling everywhere. Meanwhile, she's running the game and not even playing right, people are letting her instagib them. On top of that one of your friends[?] will start hitting on her and calling her darling or something you never thought the fool would utter out of his fleshy lips.

That is of course, my experience.

Oh yea', they spawn drama daemons everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Yeah, Ive seen several female gamers... then again, my Gf plays Warmachine (which she played long before she met me) and is trying her had with my Guard in 40k.

Im just one of the lucky ones
Then again ive never had a problem getting good looking women.... Women tend to melt when I wear my Firefighter pride shirt with my Army Combat Action Badge stuck on.

Here is one, I am tempted to self quote in my sig. Sorry if it rude:

Tacobake wrote:"If you can get them to give you a blow job, you can get them to play your game."

I just got into the hobby, but the one thing that I wouldn't particularly like about a female gamer is... they expect to be respected more THAN anyone else. Simply because they ARE playing the game and have no male genitalia. Then you have the kid who is completely crushed by this female presence and is drooling everywhere. Meanwhile, she's running the game and not even playing right, people are letting her instagib them. On top of that one of your friends[?] will start hitting on her and calling her darling or something you never thought the fool would utter out of his fleshy lips.

That is of course, my experience.

Oh yea', they spawn drama daemons everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Yeah, that's pretty annoying. I would guess people let them play nonsensically because a) they are afraid that telling them to play right will "turn them off the hobby," or b) they're too smitten by a "gamer girl." Then the girl doesn't play warhammer so much as pointlessly move models around and gets bored, the good players start to ostracize her because she doesn't know how to play, and there's a whole host of problems.
Of course, there are girls who don't need to be told off for playing wrong (and those who are told to play correctly), but honestly most newbs will play wrong if someone doesn't make them play by the rules.
(I'm not talking about "nothing but RAW!" playing by the rules, I'm talking about "why can't I take my saaave" playing by the rules. )

Im just one of the lucky ones
Then again ive never had a problem getting good looking women.... Women tend to melt when I wear my Firefighter pride shirt with my Army Combat Action Badge stuck on.

Aw man!
I tried wearing my "Jesus saves, he takes half damage" shirt, and it doesn't do anything!

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.