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I want to see a return of the penal legions, and the explosive collars.

Honestly, I don't think that ANYBODY's small arms fire is effective against MEQs. Really any incremental increases in the firepower of a guardsman is a request for an increase in the effectiveness of the guard against the very races that the lasgun is decent against to begin with.

Frankly I'd like to see small arms become effective again, but that doesn't seem to be likely with the current all or nothing AP system.

Vladsimpaler wrote:These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?

Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.

Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.

I overreacted once. True Story.

grizgrin wrote:Why is that, John? I've honestl;y not even had a chance to read the Apoc rules, but what gives the guard such an advantage? My only guess would be that they appear to have more real ranged weaponry than anyone else. But that's just a guess.

2 reasons:
1. Ordnance
2. FREE Drop Troops
In that order.

Guard can bring lots of tasty S8+ AP3- pie for *everyone*, which is always appreciated. So, if Guard aren't hamstrung by stupid FOC limitations. If you have 2+ Bassies, 2+ Russes, *and* 3 Demolishers, you bring them *ALL*.

Then Guard can Deep Strike 10 dirt cheap Wounds with a Special Weapon anywhere on the board, which is *also* always appreciated.

Yeah, don't count on Drop Troops existing in its current form into the near future John.

BYE

Also you can be beardy with IG in Apoc and legitimately claim that every infantry unit is actually a Hardened Veteran unit.

yeah, it always makes me laugh when people talk trash on the IG. They have a very powerful list, and who says they are boring to model?!?!?! Show me one army that has more modeling potential? The IG can represent ANY concievable type of army- you have by definition of the fluf limitless options for an IG army-

Plus, if you dont win with them then you just dont know how to use them. I will be the first to say they dont win as much as the absolute top teir armies, but they are just below that when used well.

Reecius wrote:Show me one army that has more modeling potential?

Lost & The Damned.



Oh... wait...


BYE

Tyranids have probably the widest breadth of modeling capability. They technically don't have to look anything like their codex counterparts and its easily justifiable in the fluff to make them all look like flying squids with full afros.

I want some of those afro-nids.

BigToof:
Frankly I'd like to see small arms become effective again, but that doesn't seem to be likely with the current all or nothing AP system.

Lasguns when never really effective. Now Autoguns, that where it was at! 32" range was a great thing for the Imperial Army.
Anyhow, overall it's easier to kill models in the current mode of AP.
3+ on 2D6 Terminator saving throws were re-dunculous and deserved the snake-eyes of a edition change.

Uhh...

Autoguns have never had a 32" range.

Autoguns in 2nd Ed were the same as Lasguns except they didn't have a Save Mod. Since then (3rd, Bath and Beyond), they've just had the same rules as Autoguns.

Maybe they were different back in the days of RT, but since 2nd Ed, no. They're not different, they've either been the same or worse.

BYE

Autoguns were better than Bolters. Pah! 32" range aint nothin' without following fire.

[edit] Cut and paste demons!

RT / 2E Shuricats. Hands down the best basic gun.

George Spiggott wrote:Pah! 32" range aint nothin' without following fire. Autoguns were better than Bolters.

When?

2nd Ed:

Autogun - Short 0-12"/Long 13"-24" (To Hit Short +1/To Hit Long +0) S3 Sv Mod 0
Boltgun - Short 0-12"/Long 13"-24" (To Hit Short +1/To Hit Long +0) S4 Sv Mod -1

3rd Ed-to-Present:

Autogun - R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire
Boltgun - R24 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire

When have they ever been better? Someone got the RT rules on hand to check?

BYE

Yes, in RT. -1 Strength is a good trade for an extra 8" of range, especially when Space Marines are Toughness 3 with a 4+ save. The Shuriken Catapult had an extra point of save modifier and following fire.

Oh for-! (Digs out Rogue Trader book)

He's right. 32" range on that puppy.

32" FOR THE WIN!
P.S. there was even a couple of Marine models with Autoguns.
Next someone will argue that Tyranid Warriors were never armed with bolters....

the New-new Autogun
R30" S3 AP6, Rapid Fire, +1 point over a Lasgun

Simply put back then anything went. It'd be interesting to break out Rogue Trader for a game or two using the newer miniatures, you'd need what 20-30 minis.

Yep. It was great because you could break teams off of squads if they were given specific orders.
i.e. the Missile Launcher and a supporting marine: "Go hold up in that building and fire at enemy vehicles"
. . . I'll have to write up some Tau rules for a couple of my opponents.

Belphegor wrote:32" FOR THE WIN!
P.S. there was even a couple of Marine models with Autoguns.
Next someone will argue that Tyranid Warriors were never armed with bolters....

Ok, they weren't. RT 'Termagaunts' were though as were Zoats.

The Scout with the Shuriken Carapult is in my Necro 'counts as' Echer gang.

Dunno how I feel about more models in an IG army. One must take into consideration the amount of time it takes to play a game in a tournament vs how much time is allowed. Seems to make things worse for IG and Orks.

Ork:
Dunno how I feel about more models in an IG army. One must take into consideration the amount of time it takes to play a game in a tournament vs how much time is allowed. Seems to make things worse for IG and Orks.

Time to start making 40k scale 'epic' movement bases

@Belphegor - people do that. You can even buy them - 5 25mm round bases in rough line.

John, I think he's implying that the way its going they will become neccesarry to play rather than just a prefered playing aid.

Yeah, I was focused more on the making bit.

Never build what you can buy - it nearly always costs less!

I agree to a point. Most of the movement trays I've seen have been wood, and anyone with the right tools could crank enough out for their army in a short amount of time using really cheap hobby wood or scrap. It also lets you put more thought into how you'd want the models to be arranged.

I've seen magnetic trays as well. But when you factor the cost of tools usually makes it cheaper to buy.

Vladsimpaler wrote:These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?

Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.

Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.

How do you figure it's my fault? It's not like GW pays any attention to me or my opinions when they're rewriting the codexes. The attitudes of the player base have no bearing on how GW decides to affect game balance.

I play Guard. That's all I can do. The Win/Loss/Draw record in my sig is probably accurate based on my notes taken. The armylist is partially to blame, though most of it is because I intuitively play Guard wrong, i.e. I don't take Russes because the model is ugly, I don't use plasma weapons or Veterans, etc. None of the tournament-effective lists I've read or seen played are appealing to me, most actively discourage taking the elements I like most in the army in favour of efficiency.

It could be that the Guard playstyle simply doesn't fit me, which would be a shame because it's the only army I could see myself ever building out of the modelling and painting viewpoint. They're also the only 40k army that has anything I can relate to, the only one whose basic morality isn't repugnant to me.

What about the new 10 Guardsmen box set?

Agamemnon2 wrote:I intuitively play Guard wrong, i.e. I don't take Russes because the model is ugly, I don't use plasma weapons or Veterans, etc.

You know, being hulled in angular plate, the Russ is easily "fixable".

If you go to my website (under 40k / IG), you can see how I converted mine... Maybe they give you some ideas of things that you might try?